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Hi

Ive been mulling over a few things recently that ive seen or read on the web regarding the CCIE track. I am a budding CCIE to be preparing for my lab next year but I sometimes wonder if Im joining an oversubscribed, watered down elite group and is it worth my while professionally! Before I go where i want to go with this topic i would say that for me personally the CCIE is a massive achievement as i will have learned and become a better engineer and yes i will gain some respect among my peers for my achievement too;but back to the topic, is the CCIE now as elite?

The reason for my post and various questions is this: trawling through the web, reading blogs, forums and speaking with colleagues at the CCIE level ive obtained various perspectives and ill list them:

1. There are many many CCIEs world wide and the numbers are growing rapidly which has a impact on saturation possibly degrading the value of the CCIE with so many available.

2a. The CCIE now is easier to pass than it was 10 years ago: the lab was 2 days back then and you built it yourself, brain dumps have devalued the written exam that cisco now have in place "forensics"

2b. The CCIE is now easier to pass that it was 10 years ago: there are many online training camps that facilitate learning materials to better prepare you through the exam, such as mock labs, workbooks, bootcamps.

3. A newly qualified CCIE #225xx compared to a 10 year CCIE #55xx....who would be in higher regards? which would you employ?....even though they have applied the same dedication, merits and skills

4. The flip side to point 3, a recent CCIE is upto date and better prepared/equipped with new technologies than a 10 year CCIE who only needs to take a written to recertify

5. The new benchmark in CCIE elite is to become "MULTI CCIE". This is to say "im more elite because ive shown i can be and expert in a different field"

6. There are muliple CCIE diciplines, Voice, SAN, Security etc yet they all come under the same CCIE number but some tracks for example Voice and SAN are so far from each other in respects to technologies and skills.

I would be glad of your comments on the points ive written. I must stress that they are not of my personal opinion. Im assuming most of these points have been debated before.

 

1. The CCIE numbers are growing, but so is the market.  Cisco's projections for emerging markets growth within the next 5 years is immense.
2. Difficulty is always subjective.  Yes, more resources are available today, but the topic depth and complexity of the technologies has grown exponentially over the past 10 years.
3. Most engineers that obtained CCIE 10+ years ago are no longer in implementation roles, and mainly are in management roles.
4. Possibly true, if the older CCIE has not been involved in implementation.
5. This is because the market is much more diverse than it was in the past.  Just look at what products where in Cisco's portfolio 10 years ago, and compare that with today.  What real network implementations today uses *just* routers and switches, but no security or no voice?
6. Specialization is key in the market, because no one can cover all bases.  Someone who's main role is SAN implementation and support will unlikely be doing Callmanager rollouts at the same time.

Regardless which side of the argument you are on, think of it this way.  How can obtaining the CCIE possible *hurt* your career?  Most of the engineers that I have met that look down upon CCIE are the ones that have secretly tried and failed and given up, or are too scared to attempt it in the first place and risk making themselves look less knowledgeable than they want in front of their peers and managers.

Just my 2cents.


abx wrote:

Hi

Ive been mulling over a few things recently that ive seen or read on the web regarding the CCIE track. I am a budding CCIE to be preparing for my lab next year but I sometimes wonder if Im joining an oversubscribed, watered down elite group and is it worth my while professionally! Before I go where i want to go with this topic i would say that for me personally the CCIE is a massive achievement as i will have learned and become a better engineer and yes i will gain some respect among my peers for my achievement too;but back to the topic, is the CCIE now as elite?

The reason for my post and various questions is this: trawling through the web, reading blogs, forums and speaking with colleagues at the CCIE level ive obtained various perspectives and ill list them:

1. There are many many CCIEs world wide and the numbers are growing rapidly which has a impact on saturation possibly degrading the value of the CCIE with so many available.

2a. The CCIE now is easier to pass than it was 10 years ago: the lab was 2 days back then and you built it yourself, brain dumps have devalued the written exam that cisco now have in place "forensics"

2b. The CCIE is now easier to pass that it was 10 years ago: there are many online training camps that facilitate learning materials to better prepare you through the exam, such as mock labs, workbooks, bootcamps.

3. A newly qualified CCIE #225xx compared to a 10 year CCIE #55xx....who would be in higher regards? which would you employ?....even though they have applied the same dedication, merits and skills

4. The flip side to point 3, a recent CCIE is upto date and better prepared/equipped with new technologies than a 10 year CCIE who only needs to take a written to recertify

5. The new benchmark in CCIE elite is to become "MULTI CCIE". This is to say "im more elite because ive shown i can be and expert in a different field"

6. There are muliple CCIE diciplines, Voice, SAN, Security etc yet they all come under the same CCIE number but some tracks for example Voice and SAN are so far from each other in respects to technologies and skills.

I would be glad of your comments on the points ive written. I must stress that they are not of my personal opinion. Im assuming most of these points have been debated before.

 

Internetwork Expert - The Industry Leader in CCIE Preparation
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my 2c..

On the comparitive hardness point.. To summarize the light harted (kinda ;-) banter that goes around the tea room in my workplace between old and new CCIE's :

CCIE 5xxx : You youngsters today have it easy with you books, documents, and Brians telling you how to pass the CCIE...

CCIE 22xxx : yeah but when you did your CCIE on ios 10.1, the only routing protocol was RIPv1, and you got 30 points for putting the routers in the rack tidily and patching them in with the right colored cables.. How hard can it be when there's only 20 commands on the router!

CCIE 5xxx : ahh but you all cheat with braindumps..

CCIE 22xxx : some do. I didn't. The difference is when they get interviewed by me, I'll spot the spoofer as I've had to learn every tweak in 12.4 code - and there's a lot of them (spoofers and tweaks). All they have to do to get past you is talk about a new protocol like EIGRP and they'll dazzle you with shiny new things...

and so on...

*grin*

Joking aside you can argue it both ways. An early CCIE who has kept up to date is generally an incredible engineer. They are where you will be next year plus 10-15 years experience of being pushed hard. Those that "move to a design/management role" can often (but not always!) be a little conservative and stuck in the past.. "OSPF - pah, what's wrong with IGRP"..

<flamebait>

Conversely you could say these days you have (much) better materials (like the 360 programme *wink*), but a hell of lot more features in the exam that you can be tested on.

Surely when you are claiming to be an expert, someone who has read more materials and learnt more features is more knowledgable than someone who has had no materials, but had to learn less features?

</flamebait>

The one thing I'd say about the CCIE, unlike many of the other cisco exams - is it's not just about getting the exam - it does make a better real world hands on engineer. That is what makes it special.

The day you walk into the lab, if you've done the work needed, you have learnt these technologies so well, that you have changed the game in terms of how usefull you are as an engineer. The other exams can be a little bit "learn the keywords", where as with the year or so of study you do for the CCIE means you've had to learn how to implement and troubleshoot, in difficult circumstances and under time pressure, most of the technologies available on the IOS.. That's a pretty cool place to be - exam or not..

Last point on the briandumps - they exist and I know people do use them.. I think this is a huge mistake - if you go that route, you will not have learnt to the same level as someone who doesn't know what to expect and is studying all areas, and if you do get a number that way, you will always know deep down you didn't really earn it. You can spot people who did their CCIE this way a mile off when you work with them.

my 2c..

On the comparitive hardness point.. To summarize the light harted (kinda ;-) banter that goes around the tea room in my workplace between old and new CCIE's :

CCIE 5xxx : You youngsters today have it easy with you books, documents, and Brians telling you how to pass the CCIE...

CCIE 22xxx : yeah but when you did your CCIE on ios 10.1, the only routing protocol was RIPv1, and you got 30 points for putting the routers in the rack tidily and patching them in with the right colored cables.. How hard can it be when there's only 20 commands on the router!

CCIE 5xxx : ahh but you all cheat with braindumps..

CCIE 22xxx : some do. I didn't. The difference is when they get interviewed by me, I'll spot the spoofer as I've had to learn every tweak in 12.4 code - and there's a lot of them (spoofers and tweaks). All they have to do to get past you is talk about a new protocol like EIGRP and they'll dazzle you with shiny new things...

and so on...

*grin*

Joking aside you can argue it both ways. An early CCIE who has kept up to date is generally an incredible engineer. They are where you will be next year plus 10-15 years experience of being pushed hard. Those that "move to a design/management role" can often (but not always!) be a little conservative and stuck in the past.. "OSPF - pah, what's wrong with IGRP"..

<flamebait>

Conversely you could say these days you have (much) better materials (like the 360 programme *wink*), but a hell of lot more features in the exam that you can be tested on.

Surely when you are claiming to be an expert, someone who has read more materials and learnt more features is more knowledgable than someone who has had no materials, but had to learn less features?

</flamebait>

The one thing I'd say about the CCIE, unlike many of the other cisco exams - is it's not just about getting the exam - it does make a better real world hands on engineer. That is what makes it special.

The day you walk into the lab, if you've done the work needed, you have learnt these technologies so well, that you have changed the game in terms of how usefull you are as an engineer. The other exams can be a little bit "learn the keywords", where as with the year or so of study you do for the CCIE means you've had to learn how to implement and troubleshoot, in difficult circumstances and under time pressure, most of the technologies available on the IOS.. That's a pretty cool place to be - exam or not..

Last point on the briandumps - they exist and I know people do use them.. I think this is a huge mistake - if you go that route, you will not have learnt to the same level as someone who doesn't know what to expect and is studying all areas, and if you do get a number that way, you will always know deep down you didn't really earn it. You can spot people who did their CCIE this way a mile off when you work with them.

Internetwork Expert - The Industry Leader in CCIE Preparation
http://www.internetworkexpert.com

Subscription information may be found at:
http://www.ieoc.com/forums/ForumSubscriptions.aspx

Brian Dennis mentions in some of the training materials that they had to carve routers out of wood - how were those tasks graded? Did the proctors deduct points for splinters? Were they able to carve the newer DB-60 serial connectors, or were the V.35 connectors easier to fabricate out of wood? (I know they didn't have smart-serial connectors way back then...)

Brian Dennis mentions in some of the training materials that they had to carve routers out of wood - how were those tasks graded? Did the proctors deduct points for splinters? Were they able to carve the newer DB-60 serial connectors, or were the V.35 connectors easier to fabricate out of wood? (I know they didn't have smart-serial connectors way back then...)

Internetwork Expert - The Industry Leader in CCIE Preparation
http://www.internetworkexpert.com

Subscription information may be found at:
http://www.ieoc.com/forums/ForumSubscriptions.aspx

Brian Dennis mentions in some of the training materials that they had to carve routers out of wood - how were those tasks graded? Did the proctors deduct points for splinters? Were they able to carve the newer DB-60 serial connectors, or were the V.35 connectors easier to fabricate out of wood? (I know they didn't have smart-serial connectors way back then...)

Internetwork Expert - The Industry Leader in CCIE Preparation
http://www.internetworkexpert.com

Subscription information may be found at:
http://www.ieoc.com/forums/ForumSubscriptions.aspx

Internetwork Expert - The Industry Leader in CCIE Preparation
http://www.internetworkexpert.com

Subscription information may be found at:
http://www.ieoc.com/forums/ForumSubscriptions.aspx

 

I have given some thought to this question, and I have come to the conclusion that the CCIE is DEFINITELY still worth pursuing, even if it WERE only for personal reasons.

Others have addressed  market share, prestige, costs.  I also definitely have to agree with Bryan.  Although not every truly knowledgable person is a CCIE, many of the people who have a grudge against people who have CCIEs do it b/c of their personal insecurities.  The only people who never get the CCIE are the ones who are scared of failing.

1. I will never regret doing it.   I will DEFINITELY regret NOT doing something I knew I could have achieved but didn't stick to my guns. 
2. I consider the CCIE the beginning of the road in a way.  I consider it the skeleton and my world experience will be the person I build around the skeleton.  Learning doesn't stop at the CCIE, it really only starts.  I want the CCIE to have the privelege to be  the lowest person on the totem pole among Senior Engineers.
   
3. I use the CCIE to structure my study of the internet and networking technology.  There's a million things  I would never have been exposed to if I didn't begin studying for the CCIE.  The CCIE gives me an excuse to study them.
   
4. Round yourself out! Career Versatility!  A  new job will expose things you NEVER needed to know.  For example, I work at a Service Provider and never touch switching.  The CCIE study is how I learn switching.  It opens the realm of jobs you can work in.
5. Do you really know it?  The CCIE study has exposed my superficial understanding of things many times.  It gives me an excuse to really dig deep in my quest for understanding.
   
6.  The thrill is in the chase!  One day you're not a CCIE, the next you may have a CCIE #.  But you were improving yourself every day you studied for the CCIE. 
   
7. Being a well-rounded engineer means knowing a wide array of technologies.
8. You never know when you  might need that extra tidbit of knowledge in troubleshooting a problem.  I've troubleshot problems @ work and helped people SOLELY on stuff I learned studying.
9. Look at the numbers, it's not all that much.  Compare the annual count of  CCIEs to the numbers of engineers, accounting majors,  biology majors the US churns out  every year.
10.  The internet isn't going anywhere, and there's still a shortage of CCIE-level skill worldwide.
11. What else do you have that will differentiate you?  You might be competing for a job against a guy who has the same years of experience, but he thought the CCIE wasn't valuable anymore and all of a sudden you have the differentiating attribute.
12. The CCIE is a resume-multiplier.  Virtually anything I really learn for the CCIE I can list as a skill acquired.

 

I'll share a personal story that illustrates that as far as challenges go, you won't regret the things you did, but the things you didn't do.

Back in '98-'99, I was a 19 yr old kid who 1yr prior passed up going to Virginia Tech  to study Biochemistry b/c I wasn't sure if it was what I wanted to do and my parents couldn't really afford it.
My brother & I got into the IT & networking field and found myself taking calls at a dial-up ISP (Erol's Internet) supporting Windows....I got exposed to UNIX/LInux/IP routing etc. eventually found my way into Cisco routers working at UUNET which was a very large ISP at the time....that was around the time the Cisco 'Are You Ready' commercials came out and I got fascinated watching them.  I wasn't sure what Cisco REALLY was but it sure felt exciting and I wanted to do that  When I get lazy studying, I sometimes watch it still since it motivates....Now, about 10 years later I get a tingly feeling watching them, I think mostly b/c of nostalgia and the internet was so mysterious/fascinating back then.  You might remember them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZWz_tuboQs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W48_kqaj_A

 

....but I digress.    

 

Eventually, I started liking that technical material and I slowly started learning about TCP/IP, telecommunications, circuits, routers, communications
etc. I started to realize that I really liked engineering more and I was glad I didn't go to college to learn 'Biochemistry', plus I was making around $40-50K and my parents were impressed.  I even chipped in significantly when my parents bought their/our first home.    Being really new to Cisco, I remember taking home the 'show running-config'  thinking I was going to read/understand it like a C program or something   This whole experience made me realize I was more fascinated with engineering/technology than I was w/ Biochemistry.

 

Anyways, after a couple years my brother & I got our CCNP & CCIE-Written....However, I had that itch to really learn engineering and no matter how much I'd try to let it go, it wouldn't budge me.  I decided I had to go to school & major in Electrical Engineering so I could learn all about that finite state machine, pulse-code-modulation, frequency, time-division multiplexing stuff I keep hearing about in Cisco circles......(at least it might help for the Wireless CCIE)

My brother warned me against it and he said: "Why not both of us get our CCIEs?" ....I wouldn't budge, I told him that I wanted a CCIE, but in the back of my mind not getting a EE degree that I wanted to get would really eat at me forever and I would feel like I took the easy way out.  Anyways, he ended up getting his CCIE within 1.5 years (2002) at the age of 22, his salary doubled to six-digs & here I was just trying to get a EE degree flat broke after being used to a steady paycheck.   At least I had a CCIE brother helping me get through college   It would have been impossible without him.

Anyways, even though I am working in IT/Cisco, I never regret going to school first b/c it was a challenge I felt I had to conquer and I feel it makes me a better engineer.  It was one of those things that I wouldn't have forgiven myself if I hadn't done what I felt I needed to do.

Similarly,  with the CCIE you will never regret it even though it's a bit more saturated b/c it is a goal you set for yourself and stopped at nothing til you achieved it.  There's nothing more satisfying than that.